Meet the Governor's new climate change attack plan

Jay Inslee seems to be done playing nice with legislators on climate. His new charge toward a carbon neutral future.
Sunrise over Puget Sound.

Sunrise over Puget Sound. Photo: Troy Mason

Gov. Jay Inslee's executive order Tuesday to tackle carbon emissions in Washington is more of a push than a flat-out mandate.

The order created an advisory task force to give him advice by Nov. 21 on preparing his climate change agenda for the 2015 legislative session. And the executive order "asks" various state and regional agencies to research what would be involved with specific potential measures, such as stopping the use of electricity produced by out-of-state coal plants and imposing carbon emissions limits on industry.

On Tuesday, Inslee said the Legislature has failed to act in a timely manner to deal with the problems of increased carbon emissions, which contribute to global warming and increasing acidity in the oceans. The changing climate has detrimental ripple effects on Washington's shellfish industry, Eastern Washington irrigators and public efforts to prevent and fight wildfires.

"I'm taking executive action because we cannot afford to wait any longer. ... We have a sense of where the Legislature is — not ready to act,' Inslee said at a press session in Shoreline, where the 21-member advisory committee also held its first meeting. Inslee does not expect the committee to reach a consensus. But he wants it to discuss "hard questions" that would come up on any carbon emissions measures in order for him to get feedback.

"We have to be bold. We're running out of time," said Renee Klein of the American Lung Association and a member of the new advisory committee.

However, Sen. Doug Ericksen, R-Ferndale and chair of the Senate Energy, Environment & Telecommunications Committee, said Republicans were not given a heads-up about Tuesday's announcement, which was attended by several Democratic legislators. And he suggested that Inslee handpicked the committee for members who lean toward the governor's environmental views.

In 2013, a committee of two GOP and two Democratic legislators, including Ericksen, met with Inslee several times, and split 2-2 on almost every major recommendation proposed by either side. The Democrats wanted to install new carbon emission limits plus a cap-and-trade program. The Republicans wanted to study nuclear power and to revoke the requirements for carbon emissions reductions that the Legislature set in a 2008 state law. Ericksen argued Inslee did not like the results from the 2013 committee, so he set up a new task force to get the results that the governor wants.

All this state wrangling was set into motion in 2008, when Washington's Legislature set a goal of reducing the state's greenhouse emissions to 1990 levels by 2020, with further trimming of emissions to 25 percent below Washington's 1990 level by 2035 and to 50 percent below by 2050. So far, nothing has happened. Washington's carbon dioxide emissions totaled 96 million metric tons of carbon dioxide emissions in 2010. If no new remedial measures are tackled and the state' population growth continues, state discharges will blast away all the goals for reductions set five years ago.

Inslee cited the non-compliance with the 2008 law as a major reason for creating the new task force.

The task force includes health, labor, tribal and environmental representatives. Its business-oriented representatives are from Puget Sound Energy, Energy Northwest, one public utility district and the state dairy association. The committee does not include representatives from the heavier-hitting business interests in Olympia. The Association of Washington Business, the state's largest and most powerful business lobbying group — except for Boeing by itself — is not on Inslee's advisory committee. The AWB strongly opposed carbon emissions limits and cap-and-trade proposals over the past year.

The advisory committee's co-chairpersons are Ada Healy of Vulcan, a Paul Allen company that is a major economic and political force in Seattle, and Rod Brown of Cascadia Law Group, a noted environmental attorney but also a member of the board of Portland General Electric, Oregon's largest utility company.

In 2013, the legislative panel's technical consultant reported that the most potent proposed policy would be to install a cap-and-trade program in which Washington would have an overall annual limit to its carbon dioxide emissions. Limits would be set for specific geographic areas. Firms would obtain rights for specific amounts of emissions in those areas and could trade their rights. A carbon tax, another suggested policy, is simply a levy on a firm's carbon dioxide emissions, which is supposed to inspire a business to decrease its emissions. Since transportation emissions account for 44 percent of Washington's carbon dioxide output, requiring lower carbon levels in fuel mixes would also help, the consultant said.


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Comments:

Posted Wed, Apr 30, 6:19 a.m. Inappropriate

Electing Jay Inslee to be Governor of the State of Washington was like giving a drunk teenager a credit card and ride to the liquor store.

If he does it on this issue, he will do in on transportation and education. With a one party Democrat majority in Olympia and on the Washington State Supreme Court, there are no checks and balances and the taxpayers have nobody watching for out for their interests.

Cameron

Posted Wed, Apr 30, 6:32 a.m. Inappropriate

Here is a link to the announcemnet the "line-up" of sychophants on the "task force".

http://governor.wa.gov/issues/climate/default.aspx

Unions, Tribes, Lawyers and Political Loyalists.

Cameron

Posted Wed, Apr 30, 10:57 a.m. Inappropriate

Yes, some of those, but also: Vulcan (co-chair), construction company (MacDonald-Miller), farmers (dairy association), private utility (PSE), timber (Green Diamnond), Alaska Air, public utility (Chelan PUD).

Whatever.

louploup

Posted Wed, Apr 30, 12:31 p.m. Inappropriate

Vulcan, Real Estate Developer (Developes Density)
MacDonald-Miller ( HVAC,stands to profit from Density)
Farmers ( regulated by DOE)
PSE ( regulated by the Utilites Commisson)
Timber ( dependent of State Timber Sales? Regulated by the Lands Commissioner)
Alaska Air ( Be at the table or you are what is for dinner)
Chelan PUD (Stands to gain on regulation of carbon based power sources)

Whatever.

Cameron

Posted Thu, May 1, 10:10 a.m. Inappropriate

Look, you said "Unions, Tribes, Lawyers and Political Loyalists" implying some sort of Inslee/Democratic oriented cabal. Obviously that's not true.

Your parentheticals explain very little. Businesses are regulated? So what. Everyone stands to gain or lose. So what.

louploup

Posted Fri, May 2, 11:50 p.m. Inappropriate

Don't worry. Sire Inslee will publicly disapprove inconveniences,
properly informed of miscreant intentions, unavailably of course.
What trains he questions will once in a while mention coal, oil,
other greasy haul chemicals, gases, byproducts, superfund stuff.
The Buffett man tried to kill Amtrak Cascades.
Merikan made even. Go Talgo USA

Wells

Posted Thu, May 1, 10:42 a.m. Inappropriate

Regarding your one question: Large private landowners like Green Diamond (Simpson) are not the main purchasers of state timber sales. The main beneficiaries are smaller firms and local companies, plus local governments and school boards who get most of the receipts from the "trust" lands. Rural communities on the Olympic Peninsula and in SW Washington are the most vociferous proponents of harvesting state forest lands.

louploup

Posted Wed, Apr 30, 8:16 p.m. Inappropriate

The public needs educated legislators writing our laws, and should do whatever needs to be done to eject lawmakers like Sen. Doug Ericksen, R-Ferndale. For the sake of my kids I hope he and others in powere who refuse to respond to the threat that the greenhouse effect and acid oceans heap on us are removed from office.

Bentler

Posted Wed, Apr 30, 10:06 p.m. Inappropriate

Sea-tac airport is the second largest emitter of co2 in the state. What to do about that?

maui

Posted Thu, May 1, 6:47 p.m. Inappropriate

Yeah, that's a problem and from what I can see, people are working that. For example, http://goo.gl/DmmNB3 and http://goo.gl/isMgkS.

We need to work on our transportation system and building design too though. The way I see it, our beloved systems are subordinate to the need to maintain a hospitable planet, and our systems are replaceable or if need be, expendable. Scientists and economists think the transition to zero carbon system is doable, and I'd rather listen to them than numbskulls in our legislature obstructing every proposal to do the right thing.

Bentler

Posted Fri, May 2, 5:50 a.m. Inappropriate

"Your parentheticals explain very little. Businesses are regulated? So what. Everyone stands to gain or lose. So what."

If you are regulated by the State, and are subjected to the whims of agencies that are filled with poltical patronage employees, you are keen to be seen as cooperative.

Inslee doen's want an unbias analysis, he wants a particular outcome.

Cameron

Posted Fri, May 2, 6:29 a.m. Inappropriate

From what I read, the governor says he wants to eliminate climate pollution in Washington. That's the only bias-- he's taking a moral stand, and he's right. Time to change.

Bentler

Posted Sat, May 3, 4:37 p.m. Inappropriate

He wants to take a moral stand without consideration of the consequences to the economy.

Cameron

Posted Sun, May 4, 6:05 a.m. Inappropriate

The consequences to the economy are likely to be much worse if lawmakers deny the problem, neglect the threat or obstruct solutions. They will make the economy unsustainable and certain to crash at some future point.

From what I can see, the ideas to solve this are "do no harm" options -- a cap and trade system or some kind of pollution fee/duty, and innovations that build toward a healthy and sustainable economy. Adding a price signal to carbon pollution is good in that it applies market forces to change behavior of everyone who uses the economy. That serves the common good and benefits everyone.

Bentler

Posted Sun, May 4, 8:37 p.m. Inappropriate

There is no "climate action plan," because there can't be.

For starters, the anthropogenic global warning hypothesis is a dead man walking. Anyone who's really examined its elements knows this.

Secondly, even if AGW were real, which it is not, the state's "action" wouldn't even rise to the level of triviality in terms of its impact. Therefore, the most charitable description would be that it's the latest symbolic horseshit from the usual "progressives" who'd rather focus on pet symbols rather than tackle the hard stuff that matters in the people's lives.

Thirdly, even if AGW were real, and even if the state could have an impact, Inslee's "action plan" is laughably hypocritical in light of his having just given billions of tax breaks to one of the biggest carbon emitters in the United States. Anyone who takes it at face value is a chump.

Finally, in light of the first three items, this winds up being yet one more attempt by the state's "progressive" Democratic Party to raise the cost of living for the middle class that it pretends to care about. You cannot have a political conversation with a Washington State Democratic politician or activist for more than 5 minutes without the desperate need for tax increases becoming the main topic. It's the Godwin's Law of "progressive" politics here.

In other words: Same shit, different sandwich. As usual.

NotFan

Posted Mon, May 5, 5:54 a.m. Inappropriate

You are wrong though, and your ignorant beliefs threaten everyone's well-being.

What can the public to do about this bellicose, partisan and dangerously wrong-headed minority.

We have a right to protect our kids and ourselves.

Bentler

Posted Mon, May 5, 7:11 a.m. Inappropriate

Well, how many other countries (pretty much all of them) are turnung their backs on this so-called "settled science"? There is no such thing. Man-made global warming is the construct of a bunch of hucksters and their dupes. Wake up. Climate changes. It has changed throughout the existence of the earth.

Seasoned

Posted Mon, May 5, 10:35 a.m. Inappropriate

You and NotFan are welcome to each other. Meanwhile, the rest of the planet leaves you behind with the flat-earthers and smoking-doesn't-cause-cancer hucksters. And their dupes.

louploup

Posted Mon, May 5, 11:27 a.m. Inappropriate

Perhaps NotFan and I are cleaning up on investments re:Global Warming/Climate Change or whatever its being called this week. As PT Barnum famously said "They're a Sucker Born Every Minute" and also the old adage " A fool and his money........."

And btw, at least crossrip addresses real issues, although I don't always agree.

Seasoned

Posted Mon, May 5, 1:49 p.m. Inappropriate

Seasoned--I rarely engage on AGW with outright deniers like you anymore; it's a frustrating exercise for all participants. Notwithstanding how much you blow hard, you are viewed as the irrelevant fringe by an ever larger proportion of humans who know how to think for themselves. You can argue about the policy implications (and some of your crowds' observations in that regard make sense), but you are not entitled to your own facts. Reality bites.

louploup

Posted Mon, May 5, 5:33 p.m. Inappropriate

louploup, the phony and innumerate "progressive," so typical of the Seattle faker who imagines itself to be smarter and better than everyone else, but who oddly enough seems to require constant reassurance. AGW is a dead man walking. Each any every one of its elements is a hollow shell, starting with the conceited lie that 97% of climste scientists subscribe to AGW.

But louploup, our resident Alfred E. Neuman, ain't gonna look at the evidence. Too scary.

NotFan

Posted Mon, May 5, 5:57 p.m. Inappropriate

I have reviewed more "evidence" than you will look at in your entire crabbed life. Ah me, feeding the pathetic troll...

louploup

Posted Mon, May 5, 11:03 p.m. Inappropriate

louploup, like the rest of Seattle's phony "progressives," your review of the evidence has consisted of going to lefty websites that tell you what you want to hear. None of your kind -- not a one of you -- has ever thought for yourselves about a single thing, ever.

NotFan

Posted Mon, May 5, 10:18 a.m. Inappropriate

The "carbon footprint" of this state is tiny. Washington has per capita the ninth lowest CO2 emissions level in the country:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions

Inslee is addressing a non-issue. He's trying to divert attention from where this state truly is screwed up: its regressive taxing schemes for essentially useless transit plans.

crossrip

Posted Mon, May 5, 10:33 a.m. Inappropriate

Your perspective is way too narrow. The complete phrase summarizing the problem is "regressive taxing schemes" for everything.

louploup

Posted Mon, May 5, 12:49 p.m. Inappropriate

Perhaps.

Still, eliminating the 1.8% sales tax and car tab tax now imposed around here just for transit and instead financing buses and rail the way TriMet does would make the state/local taxing structure here considerably less regressive. The state sales tax still would be at 6.5%, but that is much closer to the countrywide average.

Those ARE steps the government heads here could take in the near term that would help individuals and families for generations. I'm all about practical solutions to resolve manifest problems in my community; you're into running around flapping your arms about worldwide GHG emissions and what Inslee says about them. We have very different priorities.

Keep in mind, Inslee is waving the bloody shirt of this state's CO2 omissions, which always is used as the rallying cry of the tax pimps when a campaign to hike taxes that disproportionately impact individuals and families here is underway. What the tax pimps hate is anyone pointing out this state does just fine in terms of carbon emissions -- in fact, we do far better than average. Carbon emissions are not the problem here; government heads playing stupid about best practices for financing public services and infrastructure is the manifest problem here.

crossrip

Posted Mon, May 5, 2:21 p.m. Inappropriate

"Carbon emissions are not the problem here." Carbon emissions are a problem. Maybe not on a global scale, but they are a cumulative problem. Basic data is here: http://www.ecy.wa.gov/climatechange/ghg_inventory.htm

Moreover, the flip side of emissions is the use of the energy that generates the GHG emissions. Our economy and physical comfort are highly dependent on consumption of fossil fuels. Fossil fuels, and especially petroleum, are going to become increasingly expensive over the next few decades. We need to start thinking longer than one or two election cycles.

louploup

Posted Mon, May 5, 2:42 p.m. Inappropriate

"We need to start thinking longer than one or two election cycles."

No we don't. It essentially is useless to think about GHG emissions because you can't control them. And no, buying a Prius isn't going to save the planet or stop wars for oil or keep polar bears alive.

It doesn't matter what you think (or what Inslee and his panel thinks) about GHG emissions. Neither you nor Jay Inslee (nor the state legislature for that matter) can do anything about the climate impacts of the world's GHG emissions over the next thirty years.

Are you so self-deluded that you think you (or Inslee or the state legislature) can do anything to change global GHG emissions levels over the next couple of decades? That's crazy-thinking. This is a backwater part of the world that already produces less GHG per-capita than all but a handful of states. We really can not do more, nor should we bother trying.

Get rid of Boeing by taxing it and its activities in this state heavily. There -- that would reduce this state's carbon footprint more than any other steps the state legislature could take. Go for it -- that way there'd only be four states in the country with lower per-capita carbon emissions than here. And you know what -- that decrease wouldn't matter from a global perspective one little bit.

The only reasons government heads around here suggest the carbon footprint of this state amounts to a hill of beans is in the contexts of pimping new transit taxing schemes or when they're pimping a "cap and trade" plan to exact rents for the banksters. Full stop.

crossrip

Posted Mon, May 5, 2:59 p.m. Inappropriate

You're not paying attention and clearly did not read my post except in the most superficial fashion.

We are going to run out of petroleum needed to move things around. As you say, Prius's won't save us. The big question is whether the capitalist debt casino economy collapses first, thus reducing demand. But the increasing cost of energy (and the increasing percentage of economy/wealth dedicated to energy sector--see "net energy cliff") is itself a cause of economic distress, so it's really a chicken:egg question.

You are so narrowly focused on your hatred of government and taxes as to be incapable of big picture thinking. Maybe this will help: http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Systems-Donella-H-Meadows/dp/1603580557

Boeing will be out of business about the same time the airlines start making people fly naked to save on fuel costs. On top of being run by even more than usually psychopathic corporate leaders, I give 'em 10 more years.

louploup

Posted Mon, May 5, 5:36 p.m. Inappropriate

louploup, ya phony "progressive," even you ought to know that it's dumb to set a date for the end of the world. Your kind has done that many times in the past, including for the climate apocalypse.

http://tinyurl.com/climpred

NotFan

Posted Mon, May 5, 5:54 p.m. Inappropriate

NotFan--I see you're citing an idiot (Anthony Watts). Figures. Your absence was too good to last...

louploup

Posted Mon, May 5, 11:04 p.m. Inappropriate

Ah louploup, ain't it great when you define anyone who tells you what you don't want to hear as an "idiot." So Seattle. So "progressive." And so, so, soooooooooo phony.

NotFan

Posted Mon, May 5, 4:04 p.m. Inappropriate

Louploup,

Public and governmental "opinion" is less and less accepting of this "AGW" Theory. Look outside of the PNW progressives and you'll see.

Seasoned

Posted Mon, May 5, 6:31 p.m. Inappropriate

I work and research nationally and internationally. You don't have a clue. People who know their ass from a hole in the ground don't deny reality.

If you really want to engage on AGW, produce some competent evidence to disprove the broadly accepted basics (GH effect, human emissions of GHGs, resulting impacts and changes). And don't waste your time citing WUWT or similar garbage like NotFan did above. A weatherman with no degree at all (let alone in a relevant science) and not a single published work anywhere but on his nasty blog doesn't cut it.

[Ooops--I was wrong-The Heartland Institute did publish Watts's paper challenging NOAA's surface temperature measurements. You can look up a short video describing it at http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Anthony_Watts ]

louploup

Posted Mon, May 5, 11:06 p.m. Inappropriate

louploup, if you "research" anything, God help whomever relies upon your "work." Really. Frankly, given your propensity for parroting conventional "progressive" talking points, I'm sure it's not actual "research," but rather the collection of data that supports whatever predetermined conclusion your clients desire. If there's any originality involved, you are far away from it. You're a pathetic "progressive" phony from the word go.

NotFan

Posted Mon, May 5, 11:45 p.m. Inappropriate

Seasoned, in case you're not aware of it, here's a source for 1,350 peer-reviewed papers that conflict wuth AGW. I'd offer it to "ouploup," but we know that (s)he's too much of a coward to deal with it.

http://www.populartechnology.net/2009/10/peer-reviewed-papers-supporting.html

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 5:36 a.m. Inappropriate

Notfan, that's somebody's personal website not a scientific site at all. You are so misleading.

"Poptech... picks and chooses, cherry picks, takes things out-of-context, distorts what was actually said, and does pretty much anything to try and throw a wrench into reality."
https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120903164637AAW3dxi

"nine of the ten most cited authors on the list have links to ExxonMobil-funded organizations. The tenth has co-authored several papers with Exxon-funded contributors. ... familiar climate skeptic names appear over and over again."
http://www.desmogblog.com/fossil-fools-fund-latest-petition

Bentler

Posted Tue, May 6, 11:21 a.m. Inappropriate

Yep, even when there are peer reviewed papers, the "progressive" denialists find a way to ignore evidence. Must be a nice existence there in your Church of Climatology. Tell me, do they offer those nifty personality tests?

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 3:14 p.m. Inappropriate

NotFan is not misleading; he's a provocateur. The site he referenced is, as John Cook is quoted as saying, "fascinating." Cook is labeled as "Cartoonist at Skeptical Science." Deniers hate Cook and Skeptical Science because they exposes denier ignorance, logical fallacies, and political/economic connections. In fact Cook obtained a degree in physics and is one of the founders of of SS as a totally independent site. It is one of the best sites I know of for both simple and in-depth explanations of the science on AGW issues. Here's the crew: http://www.skepticalscience.com/team.php

Taking a quick look at poptech (yes, NF succeeds in wasting my time) I found the usual suspects. Like Sherwood Idso who is an author of many of the papers listed on the page I scrolled. In fact, a quick review of the abstracts shows that many of these papers (a lot from the mid 1980s) do not support a claim that AGW doesn't exist. Regardless, Idso, and both his sons, are adamant and extremist deniers, with many connections to the reactionary Heartland Institute and the fossil fuel industry.

When I opened a couple of Idso's earlier published papers to confirm they don't disprove AGW, I noticed one name I wasn't familiar with, so I looked him up too: http://www.desmogblog.com/robert-c-balling-jr More of the same: Balling (a geographer, not a climatologist) "acknowledged that he has received $408,000 in research funding from the fossil fuel industry over the last decade (of which his University takes 50% for overhead). Contributors have included ExxonMobil, the British Coal Corporation, Cyprus Minerals and OPEC."

Here's Idso's own page: http://www.desmogblog.com/sherwood-b-idso (a soils scientist, not a climatologist).

NotFan might have a page of his own as well, but since we don't know who he is beyond the bile he spews here...

louploup

Posted Tue, May 6, 5:39 p.m. Inappropriate

louploup is a classic Seattle "progressive" idiot who thinks it knows anything, but actually spends its time feeding its inexhaustible need for self-affirmation. Hey louploup, tell us all about your bullshit "international research." This should be good, you phony.

NotFan

Posted Sun, May 18, 6:23 p.m. Inappropriate

If I'm such a phony, how come you're the one who never responds to substantive points with reasoned content. Just spewing and invective. Must be pleasant to be you.

louploup

Posted Tue, May 6, 6:23 a.m. Inappropriate

NotFan - I distrust most scientific "consensus" because throughout history, its turned out to be dead wrong more often than not. Climate changes, and has throughout history. The simple minded, now they've abandoned religion, need something to replace the concept of a wrathful God. Simple human nature, and the AGW touters are akin to the old time revivalists and snake oil salesmen.

Seasoned

Posted Tue, May 6, 11:27 a.m. Inappropriate

The Church of Climatology loves to repeat the claim that 97% of climate scientists support AGW. There's a great story behind that particular lie.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/07/18/about-that-overwhelming-98-number-of-scientists-consensus/

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 11:25 a.m. Inappropriate

The ignorance of science in this country is pretty astounding.

Lily32

Posted Tue, May 6, 11:31 a.m. Inappropriate

Absolutely true. The phony "progressives" in WA State wouldn't know the scientific method if it hit 'em in the face. Anyone who ever says the science on anything is "settled" is a complete idiot.

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 3:20 p.m. Inappropriate

Why don't you jump off the Aurora bridge since the basis for the theory of gravity is not "settled"? At the least that would prove the evolutionary theory of "survival of the smartest."

louploup

Posted Tue, May 6, 5:40 p.m. Inappropriate

You go first. Oh wait, though -- as long as some other "progressive" jumped off, you'd be glad to follow. It's what you people do.

NotFan

Posted Thu, May 8, 5:33 a.m. Inappropriate

Your lack of logic shows - gravity can be measured and replicated via the scientific method. As in real scientific verification. The AGWers are using attribution, and very poorly (or cynically) at that.

Seasoned

Posted Sun, May 18, 6:19 p.m. Inappropriate

Seasoned: Which fundamental aspects of AGW have not been "measured and replicated via the scientific method"? The GW (greenhouse effect) has been thoroughly measured and replicated. For well over a century. The A (anthropogenic emissions of GHGs) has been thoroughly measured; replicating it would be difficult and absurd.

louploup

Posted Tue, May 6, noon Inappropriate

Well, for example. I gave a paper at the annual Salish Sea Conference last week, which is a gathering of Puget Sound and B.C. scientists - it's held in B.C. one year, then WA the next. It was attended by close to 2,000 this year at the Seattle Convention Center. You may want to continue to wallow in ignorant bliss - or just put on the performance act (again) to yank a chain or two. But really. It's silly.

Here's a brief sampling of the 450 research papers presented over the course of three days:

-Future climate impacts on Puget Sound oceanography
-Climate change and its impact on seasonal patterns of Puget Sound circulation
-Oyster recruitment and climate change.
--Seaweed responses to climate change
--Likely response of kelps to future ocean acidification conditions in the Salish Sea.
--Attribution of corrosive bottom-water conditions to ocean acidification and other estuarine drivers in Puget Sound.
--Extreme pCO2 in macro-tidal eelgrass meadows
--Common risks among declining marine predators suggest ecosystem change
--Planning tools for seal level rise adaptation
--City of Anacortes Water Treatment Plan Climate Change Mitigation

One is entitled to their one opinion, but not their own facts. The climate change so-called debate was over a decade ago. Flat earthers not withstanding.

Treker

Posted Tue, May 6, 12:08 p.m. Inappropriate

Oh - and ya gotta love Forbes Magazine (the scientific article quoted by our favorite village idiot above) that claims some random poll is the source that a majority of climate scientists agree that global climate change is occurring and is a result of human induced changes. Wrong. Again.

It is actually from an exhaustive review (again) of yes, get this, PEER REVIEWED scientific literature. Sorry - that Rush Limbaugh site didn't pass muster. See the link.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/may/16/climate-research-nearly-unanimous-humans-causes?guni=Network%20front:network-front%20main-3%20Main%20trailblock:Network%20front%20-%20main%20trailblock:Position1

Treker

Posted Tue, May 6, 2:52 p.m. Inappropriate

Ah Treker, the "progressive" jerk who refuses to read. I posted a link with 1,350 PEER REVIEWED papers, but a "progressive" doesn't like peer review. What goddamned phonies you people are.

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 3:18 p.m. Inappropriate

If you mean this one, it's a broken link - wanna try again?:

Seasoned, in case you're not aware of it, here's a source for 1,350 peer-reviewed papers that conflict wuth AGW. I'd offer it to "ouploup," but we know that (s)he's too much of a coward to deal with it.

Lily32

Posted Thu, May 8, 5:35 a.m. Inappropriate

Yep, just like the so-called "food pyramid".

Seasoned

Posted Tue, May 6, 12:47 p.m. Inappropriate

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Lily32

Posted Tue, May 6, 2:53 p.m. Inappropriate

Yes it is, Lily32, Seattle's obnoxious and willfully stupid "progressives" making for great fish.

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 3:26 p.m. Inappropriate

Especially how Loup Loup easily demolished another flat earth website.

Lily32

Posted Tue, May 6, 5:42 p.m. Inappropriate

Louploup is a phony "progressive," just like you.

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 6:24 p.m. Inappropriate

I think NotFan is paid by the post with a $100 bonus if he ends the discussion with the last post.

Bentler

Posted Tue, May 6, 6:27 p.m. Inappropriate

I wish

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 7:07 p.m. Inappropriate

It's all part of the continuous performance art piece.

Treker

Posted Tue, May 6, 9:08 p.m. Inappropriate

Yes, the "progressive" phonies here are truly a work of art.

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 6, 10:22 p.m. Inappropriate

Yup, artistic to the end. And since you always want the last act, anonymous NotFan, here's one for you: What's scarier, thinking there are limits to resources that we are moving past, humans might be in population overshoot, the ecosystem is unraveling to our potentially huge detriment, and we have a socio-economic system run by psychopathic capitalism aided by uneducated morons who don't know up from down -or- being one of those uneducated morons and thinking everything is fine except the government which must be drowned in a bathtub because the real problem is the free market needs to be freer in order to solve any problems we might have, which really aren't that serious? Really, last word is yours, I promise: which perspective do you think is likely to engender a more pessimistic outlook? And then tell me: Why am I more hopeful and less full of bile than you?

louploup

Posted Wed, May 7, 6:04 a.m. Inappropriate

Modern day Elmer Gantry - great you found a secular substitute for hellfire and brimstone.

Seasoned

Posted Wed, May 7, 9:54 a.m. Inappropriate

That must mean you're Sancho Panza.

louploup

Posted Thu, May 8, 1:57 p.m. Inappropriate

louploup, when it comes to "bile," there's really nothing so bilious as the typical hateful, nasty, authoritarian Seattle "progressive" scorned. Your tribe is ugly, scary, and -- above all -- stupid. Not a great combination, especially when married to laziness and incompetence.

NotFan

Posted Wed, May 7, 7:36 a.m. Inappropriate

NotFan - follow the money!

Seasoned

Posted Wed, May 7, 6:37 a.m. Inappropriate

Dr. Albert Bartlett on the exponential function - this is a good subject to understand: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY

Bentler

Posted Wed, May 7, 9:08 a.m. Inappropriate

Timely discussion with the recent release of the National Climate Assessment -- http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023546114_climatenorthwestxml.html

OMG! Climate change is already occurring

Lily32

Posted Thu, May 8, 5:36 a.m. Inappropriate

As it has throughout the history of our planet.

Seasoned

Posted Thu, May 8, 8:34 a.m. Inappropriate

But not human induced.

Lily32

Posted Thu, May 8, 11:04 a.m. Inappropriate

Your theory.

Seasoned

Posted Thu, May 8, 11:28 a.m. Inappropriate

Yea - right. Read the friggin' report cited above. It's called having the ability to read, comprehend, analyze data, and come to a logically, science-based conclusion. Duh - It's science.

Next up for debate - the horizon is the edge of the world, fluoride in drinking water causes cancer, and vaccines should be avoided.

The extent of science ignorance is quite amazing.

Treker

Posted Thu, May 8, 1:54 p.m. Inappropriate

Yeah, Treker, it's true. Your ignorance of science is exceeded only by your Seattle "progressive" self-righteousness and unfounded self-confidence.

NotFan

Posted Thu, May 8, 2:28 p.m. Inappropriate

Yep, someone wrote a report - so it has to be true, right? There are actually a small subset of people who have serious problems with vaccines, and paricularly when the polio vaccines were first released there were some very bad batches. But in the entirety, vaccines have been a public good.

I smile when I read all of the invectives - idiots, Taliban, dangerous. It seems to me if you were all born in a dirferent place you'd be screaming, "devils, infidels", and well, you know the rest. You need strong, charismatic authority figures and a feeling that you are doing really important things. I get it.

Seasoned

Posted Thu, May 8, 3:20 p.m. Inappropriate

No. It's stunning that you can't even keep up with a logical discussion here, never-the-less digest the intrinsic ideas forwarded in the cited report. It's not that "someone" just wrote a report - but that imminent climate scientists carefully parsed through all the data and have come to the same conclusions.

And it's not that they are relying on future models - it's from observed data. The use of Taliban is appropriate - as facts don't enter into the discussion it's simply - "I don't believe this" ----though there is no logical argument to follow.

No reason to further engage in this folly. If there were policy discussion based on some facts - it might be different. But as with the current state of regressive politics, ignorance is bliss I suppose. Or feel free to doodle around the pseudoscience sites previously posted. I think Faux News has a whole page devoted to these.

Carry on.

Treker

Posted Thu, May 8, 3:32 p.m. Inappropriate

Hmmmmm. Reminds me of....

Ignorance is like a delicate exotic fruit, touch it and the bloom is gone. O. Wilde

It's like a dang greenhouse here - ta-ta.

Lily32

Posted Thu, May 8, 10:37 p.m. Inappropriate

Treker, that's funny, a vicious "progressive" like you pretending that you've had a "logical discussion" here. Got any more gems for us? You wouldn't recognize logic if it slithered up your leg and bit ya on the vitals.

NotFan

Posted Fri, May 9, 10:26 a.m. Inappropriate

From the very early stage when I started doing performance art in the '70s, the general attitude - not just me, but also my colleagues - was that there should not be any documentation, that the performance itself is artwork and there should be no documentation.

Marina Abramovic

...and our own village idiot

Lily32

Posted Fri, May 9, 6:30 p.m. Inappropriate

Lily32, don't be so down on yourself. A little addled? Maybe. But you're not the village idiot, dear. Those people are bring cruel.

NotFan

Posted Wed, May 7, 2:57 p.m. Inappropriate

One of the scarce common sense Republicans on climate change. Unfortunately he has no chance of affecting the current Taliban in charge.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/07/opinion/the-gop-cant-ignore-climate-change.html?ref=international&_r=1

Lily32

Posted Fri, May 9, 6:22 p.m. Inappropriate

So it looks like the UW's Prof. Cliff Mass just nailed the climate report's section on the Northwest. Of course, this is the same Cliff Mass who msde mincemeat out the Seattle Times on the lazy, phony claims regarding ocean acidification and Puget Sound oysters -- and (worst of all) the same Cliff Mass who was dropped by the public radio station for expressing his opinion about the underperforming "progressive" Seattle School District's math curriculum.

So, I'm sure the phony Seattle "progressives" here will call him a wingnut and a denialist and all kinds of names.

http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2014/05/northwest-climate-change-did-2014.html

NotFan

Posted Sat, May 10, 12:14 p.m. Inappropriate

You are amusing us as your title of the Crosscut Village Idiot again. Let me walk you thru how rhetoric is supposed to work. You - arguing that climate change is a hoax, are supposed to post websites that bolster your argument - not the opposite.

The Mass website take issue with a tiny, tiny element of degree. And then circles back to his conclusion that our biggest concern will be with surface water changes in amount and timing.

Another brilliant performance piece depicting the failings to understand the written word and then, apparently not realizing it, making additional foolish posts. It really is an understated performance piece and solidifies your crown, which appears to be under no threat from rivals.

Lily32

Posted Sat, May 10, 12:39 p.m. Inappropriate

Lily32, isn't it time for today's dose of aricept?

NotFan

Posted Sat, May 10, 6:02 p.m. Inappropriate

I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single argument left.

Margaret Thatcher

Lily32

Posted Sun, May 11, 2:03 p.m. Inappropriate

Says the old hypocrette who has launched several personal attacks in this thread. But hey, it's very "progressive." No need for any logic or consistency when you're nothing but an exposed nerve ending, eh Lily?

NotFan

Posted Mon, May 12, 9:10 a.m. Inappropriate

Lily's launching personal attacks!? lol

louploup

Posted Sun, May 11, 6:49 a.m. Inappropriate

NotFan has a very dangerous way of thinking-- always searching for the excuse to ignore the problem and avoid responsibility. We will be wise to vote out people who think like this from positions of responsibility, such as lawmakers-- and based on this column http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2014/may/11/smart-bombs-cold-shoulder-for-global-warming/, his attitude is a common one in our state.

We need well-education, creative, good people working on our behalf in government-- not incompetent, deluded fools. This is a serious matter that threatens all of us-- it threatens the well-being of our kids-- and our leaders do need to be up to the task of responding to it seriously and effectively.

Bentler

Posted Sun, May 11, 12:32 p.m. Inappropriate

Well said. Here's another side of the AGW coin (it's not simply bi-polar): http://ourfiniteworld.com/2014/05/07/russia-and-the-ukraine-the-worrisome-connection-to-world-oil-and-gas-problems/#more-38956

louploup

Posted Mon, May 12, 6:13 a.m. Inappropriate

Yeah, I know. The western US seems capable to help solve this at the scale needed though, where other cultures are more likely to get mired in the past. Perhaps we can export innovation to a world in need of ideas if we will get started.

Bentler

Posted Sun, May 11, 2:05 p.m. Inappropriate

Bentler, the minute one of you "progressives" bleats about "the well being of our kids," I move my wallet to my front pocket.

NotFan

Posted Mon, May 12, 6:24 a.m. Inappropriate

Your ignorant beliefs are already costing everyone else-- they are costing us dearly, and they will not prevail.

Bentler

Posted Mon, May 19, 3:42 a.m. Inappropriate

Your Seattle "progressive" idiocy is already driving up the cost of living. But you're rich, so you couldn't give a rat's ass about the working middle class.

NotFan

Posted Sun, May 11, 5:47 p.m. Inappropriate

Thanks Bentler- agreed

Lily32

Posted Mon, May 12, 2:27 p.m. Inappropriate

And for those interested - here's a critique of the Cliff Mass critique of the Seattle Times ocean acidification. As usual, Cliff is out blovating a bit more and outside of his area of expertise. He is not an oceanographer nor an ocean chemist. Basically the scientists who reviewed the article and Cliff's ego rant - who have expertise in the field, say he is incorrect and the Times is correct. http://blogs.seattletimes.com/seachange/2013/10/12/expert-critique-of-seattle-times-sea-change-project-ignores-the-science/

Cliff is a good weather guy. He should really stick to that. He was booted off KUOW because he wanted to use the weekly weather spot as a platform for all kinds of other crap - such as teaching math in Seattle schools. They asked him a couple times to stick to the subject at hand but he kept doing it - so they booted him. The state climatologist they use now does quite a fine job of it.

Lily32

Posted Mon, May 12, 8:35 p.m. Inappropriate

Cliff Mass has had his tootsies toasted before stepping outside his expertise: http://tamino.wordpress.com/2012/08/13/hansen-et-al-2012/

louploup

Posted Tue, May 13, 2:53 p.m. Inappropriate

As have Mr Hansen, et al.
http://www.danielbbotkin.com/2013/05/30/new-european-fisheries-council-policy-shows-that-the-balance-of-nature-belief-is-alive-and-vigorous/

afreeman

Posted Wed, May 14, 8:29 a.m. Inappropriate

Not that clown Botkin again - seriously, you can't do better than this? Another wannabe with no credentials in the area of climate change except to parley his climate denier role into a paid mouthpiece for Exxon (look up how much this guy gets from the petro industry) the WSJ and Faux News.

"The article Botkin cites is from American Scientist, an unreviewed pop science magazine, and it is mainly a rehash of old arguments that have been discussed and disposed of elsewhere. And anyway, the issue is a red-herring. Even if it turned out that for some bizarre reason the Kilimanjaro glacier, which is thousands of years old, picked just this moment to melt purely by coincidence, it would not in any way affect the validity of our prediction of future warming. Glaciers are melting around the world, confirming the general warming trends that we measure. There are also many other confirmations of the physics behind the predictions."

Treker

Posted Wed, May 14, 1:31 p.m. Inappropriate

Dear Readers,
Treker's obvious source:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/10/global-warming-delusions-at-the-wall-street-journal/

From the article defamed:
"You might think I must be one of those know-nothing naysayers who believes global warming is a liberal plot. On the contrary, I am a biologist and ecologist who has worked on global warming, and been concerned about its effects, since 1968....

Some colleagues who share some of my doubts argue that the only way to get our society to change is to frighten people with the possibility of a catastrophe, and that therefore it is all right and even necessary for scientists to exaggerate... 'Wolves deceive their prey, don't they?' one said to me recently. Therefore, biologically, he said, we are justified in exaggerating to get society to change."

Qualifications re: "Balance of Nature Belief"
http://www.danielbbotkin.com/about/
http://seattle.bibliocommons.com/item/show/2881520030_the_moon_in_the_nautilus_shell

afreeman

Posted Wed, May 14, 2:34 p.m. Inappropriate

Yea. Not a climatologist. His take is generally that climate change has happened before, critters and plants will adapt, what's the big deal. I suspect it has nothing to do with his funding by Exxon, the Heartland Institute, and the petro chemical industry. He has done some interesting work on modeling of forests. He should stick to that.

He got slammed in a Nature article where he tried to venture into climate science in an article on another topic. Yea, he wrote a book - so did Rush Limbaugh.

Treker

Posted Wed, May 14, 2:52 p.m. Inappropriate

Also - the guy has been retired since 1992 and spends his time now writing books, collecting fees from the petrochemical industry, and appearing on Faux News and in the WSJ. Yea - and imminent climate scholar.

Treker

Posted Wed, May 14, 10:40 p.m. Inappropriate

T,
And what's our opinion of GMO?

afreeman

Posted Mon, May 12, 8:36 p.m. Inappropriate

duplicate

louploup

Posted Wed, May 14, 10:19 a.m. Inappropriate

Cliff was among a group of concerned citizens, which included teachers of mathematics seeking to push Washington school districts - esp. Seattle to dump the constructivist math approach. He noticed that his college students who were taught via the constructivist curriculum were unable to perform basic algebra and arithmetic, due to the lack of rigor and instruction in basic mathematic algorithms. Parents in both the Bellevue and Northshore districts protested sucessfully against the adoption of constructivist math.

But what does Cliff know? After all, US Students do so well in mathematics compared to their international counterparts.

Seasoned

Posted Wed, May 14, 10:50 a.m. Inappropriate

Oh, I think's it's just fine that he has an opinion on the subject. It's just that his ego got in his way and he wanted to turn the KUOW weather section into a platform for lectures of his choosing. KUOW warned him several times and then just got sick of his attitude and said thanks but no thanks. Now he can blog away to his heart's content.

Treker

Posted Wed, May 14, 12:47 p.m. Inappropriate

He was passionate about an educational travesty being foisted on the unsuspecting. Again, this was a curriculum that was rejected by the parents and/or administrators of the highest income/SES districts - but Seattle Public Schools chose to spend our tax dollars to defend their "right" to keep it in the face of much opposition. A curriculum that hurts the poorest children - the ones whose parents can't afford to send them to Kumon or some other tutoring program.

Seasoned

Posted Wed, May 14, 12:57 p.m. Inappropriate

Yea, fine if that's his opinion - what I don't like is the ego he drags along with him that he thinks he's entitled to do WETF he wants to do when the local public radio station asked him for a weekly 15 minute spot on weather. The politely asked him to refrain from his political commentary - he refused - so be it. No whinning.

Treker

Posted Wed, May 14, 1:49 p.m. Inappropriate

But it is not political - the anti-constructivists included both sides of the political aisle and especially educational advocates for the disadvantaged.

Seasoned

Posted Wed, May 14, 2:04 p.m. Inappropriate

Yawn. It was off topic, not what was asked for, and served one purpose. To fuel his ego. Ciao baby!

Treker

Posted Wed, May 14, 3:51 p.m. Inappropriate

Lily32 was the one who originally brought it up. So I those who go against certain orthodoxies are dangerous or egotistical. So predictable - as is the Seattle progressive lockstep of conformity.

Seasoned

Posted Wed, May 14, 4:16 p.m. Inappropriate

Dude. Like I said. I think it's just great that he has an opinion and all that. It's a simple matter of courtesy.. He was asked by KUOW to do one thing --- a 15 weather segment.

What I meant was that Cliff Mass was off-topic.
He tried to use it as a soapbox for his agenda. KUOW asked him to stop - he didn't -- so they asked him to leave.

It has nothing to do with whether his views were correct or not. If he wanted to yak-yak on public schools he needed to find another outlet. Now he has his blog.

I think the common theme here is how he just seems to continue to put out false information on the climate front and then gets slammed by the folks who actually have experience and credentials in the field.

Treker

Posted Mon, May 19, 3:40 a.m. Inappropriate

When push comes to shove, Seattle's "progressives" have no more interest in freedom than the wingnuts do. Two sides of the same coin.

NotFan

Posted Tue, May 20, 12:42 p.m. Inappropriate

Free-dum! Free-dum! Alas. We never said making and idiot of one's self disqualified you from posting an opinion. There's something to be said about consistency I suppose.

Treker

Posted Mon, May 12, 6:37 p.m. Inappropriate

louploup said:

"I work and research nationally and internationally."

How often do you board a plane and fly to accomplish this?

ALP

Posted Mon, May 12, 8:37 p.m. Inappropriate

Never; I use the phone and internet tube thingies. I hate flying.

louploup

Posted Tue, May 13, 12:27 p.m. Inappropriate

Fabulous. All too often, the people I meet that yammer the loudest about the environment are the same ones that MUST fly to some far flung location every chance they get. They simply cannot grasp the contradiction, and can't get their heads around the idea that a nice vacation can be had without getting on a plane.

These are the same people who will follow you around to berate you for tossing an empty soda can into the wrong recycling bin. Ridiculous!

ALP

Posted Thu, May 15, 7:46 p.m. Inappropriate

Is there really a need for a cap and trade program? Nothing done in the west will fix any flawed thinking about climate change. China and India will all make up for it. No energy solutions? Nuclear power plants powering every large city seems to be the only answer. Solar and wind power aren't mature enough to power civilization without a large war to kill a lot of people first.

pdx

Posted Thu, May 15, 7:54 p.m. Inappropriate

You can find the climate consensus debunked here. http://wattsupwiththat.com/

pdx

Posted Tue, May 20, 6:53 a.m. Inappropriate

That's some guy's personal blog, not a science site at all. He's one guy, not competent about climate science and he publishes disinformation. How can you read B.S. like "Watt's Up With That" and think it's true? It's a wonder he doesn't get sued for endangering the public.

Bentler

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