The current guns-in-Starbucks debate signifies how greatly the ground has shifted on the whole issue of gun control.
Having been raised in the Puget Sound area and then living in the Boston-New York-D.C. corridor, where gun control was a given, I was shocked, during the 1964 Democratic presidential campaign, to fly into a rally in Tucson, Arizona, where a good percentage of the attendees were openly carrying sidearms in holsters. The Secret Service appeared to pay them little mind. This, mind you, was only a few months after President Kennedy had been shot to death in Dallas.
The 1968 assassinations of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and Sen. Robert Kennedy brought fresh national pressure for gun control and, it seemed, a national consensus that guns were dangerous and should be tightly regulated.
Gradually, opinion began shifting. The emphasis became on "handgun" control and not on hunting rifles and other weapons. Democrats, strongly identified with control measures, began pulling away from them on a national basis, finding themselves losing ground in hunting states. The issue has been conveniently soft-pedaled by Democratic presidential candidates since 1992.
The scale of the shift became apparent to me last week in a college, ranching, farming, and commercial town in central Arizona where I spend part of my time. A few months earlier, a local landowner had fired off rounds from an AK-47 assault rifle while hikers were moving across nearby ground (not owned by the rancher). The hikers turned him in. It seemed apparent to them he was trying to frighten and even harm them.
The AK-47 owner said he had not seen the hikers and was unaware of them. He had not heard their shouts to him because his ears were covered. He owned the weapon, he said, to use against coyotes and other predators threatening his livestock. (An AK-47, it seemed to me, was an improbable weapon for such use. Why not a more accurate hunting rifle?)
Bottom line: A jury found the rancher not guilty on all of several counts. Local opinion generally sided against the hikers. Majority opinion in the area generally sides with the notion that anyone, anytime should be able to openly or covertly carry a firearm — into bars, coffee houses, on the street, you name it.
I've always been puzzled by the compulsion many have to carry firearms. I got my own fill of them after several years of active and reserve Army duty. I find that most former servicemen who have seen weapons fired in anger want little to do with them as civilians. Of course, there are always those who, before their service, were gun lovers and, afterward, have picked up where they left off. But that is another matter.
What has happened to us? How many shooting incidents must we undergo? How many tragic home accidents? Hey, dangerous weapons must be legally controlled. It seems absurd we are even having the argument.
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Comments:
Posted Sun, Mar 7, 12:45 p.m. Inappropriate
The First Ammendment which gives you the right to publish this garbage is protected by the Second Ammendment which gives me the gives others the right to have the firearms you so hate.
So are you willing to give up your First Ammendment (and probably all your other right as well) if the Second Ammendment were erased?
I kinda doubt it.
Posted Sun, Mar 7, 12:47 p.m. Inappropriate
God i hate using a different computer. I really appreciate not having an edit button.
Posted Sun, Mar 7, 4:12 p.m. Inappropriate
I have read with pleasure Mr. Van Dyck’s articles from various sources over the years, and I was glad to find him on Crosscut. However, I must take exception to this article.
The gun rights movement is not about hunting, it is about self-protection and maintaining the ability to resist an oppressive government. Look at the history of our constitutional and post-constitutional debates. Remember that they were mainly operating under the principles of the Enlightenment; reason was one of their lynch pins.
If one thinks that we have no need of such protections against governments today, just look at the role of gun control over the last 80 years in promulgating dictatorial regimens and crimes against humanity.
Secondarily gun control laws almost always have specific target groups, be they ethnic, religious, or other. In this country it has often been minorities or new immigrants. Take the shibboleth of the “Saturday night special”. The term was politically inspired, and legislation based upon it was used primarily to restrict access of people of lesser means to firearms.
This leads to the issue of weapons categorization by appearance rather than by function or lethality. The great gun ban of the 1990’s targeted “assault weapons” and other firearms based on external appearances. It is probably pointless at this time to state that an assault weapon is by definition capable of fully automatic fire. Fully automatic weapons have been severely restricted in this country since the 1930’s. By virtue of cost alone that are unavailable to the vast majority of people.
As to the rancher, he probably did make a poor choice of weapons. An AK 47 is not really a varmint rifle. He apparently violated the laws of man as well. That makes the person evil or stupid not the weapon.
Take a look at the practical affect of gun control laws enacted in Britain and its former colonies (including us) over the last 30 years or so. Many of the studies cited in the media have been financed by governments or NGO’s with a specific anti-gun tilt. I would suggest some reading of Lott or Kleck .. Consider especially that results over the last 20 years or so of right-to- carry concealed weapons permits. The predicted blood baths never occurred. One should look for peer reviewed articles just as one would for a new study of our “hobbit” relatives in Asia
Finally from a gut level, does one really believe that gun control laws will stop the bad guys from carrying.
I have been a Washington state concealed pistol permit holder for over twenty years; I carry regularly. I haven’t fired a weapon outside of a range area since my service as an Infantry officer in Vietnam. I train regularly and a corrupt as many people to the “gun culture” as I can by giving safety and function training and taking them out to shoot.
I disagree with Mr. Van Dyck, but I am fully prepared to defend his First Amendment rights with those given to me by the Second.
riverworld
Posted Sun, Mar 7, 4:15 p.m. Inappropriate
cab0154 has it spot on. History shows that the Second Ammendment has been the means to protecting all of our rights. I grew up thinking everything would be taken care of by Uncle Sam. When I got to college I saw the reality of the world. What our government has in place is good but they aren't the first responders to our worlds problems. If you have a break in at your home or out in the city, you are the first person who needs to respond to that threat. An officer isn't going to help you that instant.
I choose to have a firearm for the same reasons I choose to invest in life insurance, car insurance, a fire extinguisher in my home because I know stuff happens. I don't ever want to need to use those things but you just may have to.
Posted Sun, Mar 7, 8:25 p.m. Inappropriate
I'm not sure why you find fault with the rancher!
First of all: Why shouldn't a person be able to discharge firearms on his own property? If it is rural enough to attract hikers, isn't it also a rural enough setting to safely discharge firearms?
Secondly: As for his choice of firearm, the semiauto only AK clones available in the US are still a relatively inexpensive option for the consumer, and fires a round that is ballistically nearly equivalent to the venerable .30-30 Winchester, a popular lever gun caliber that has accompanied many ranchers in the last 108+ years. Does the author's seeming preference for the traditional wood stocked, (generally) bolt action hunting rifle reek of classism to anyone besides me?
Thirdly: What does any of this have to do with legal open carry of firearms in a public setting? Why is the author trying to corrupt a valid discussion about the rights of a business entity to limit or allow its service to a client, based solely on that client's attire? In either WA or AZ, the owner may post their private property as not allowing weapons, and then a "no trespass" can be issued, as needed, by the local police. That client may also choose to take his or her business to another vendor that respects the concept of "innocent until proven guilty".
That's why I'll make sure to buy my next commercially available cup of coffee at Starbuck's, even if they haven't been able to make a plain black cup of coffee that this retired Marine likes.
Dave in Grapeview
Posted Sun, Mar 7, 8:50 p.m. Inappropriate
"...that guns were dangerous and should be tightly regulated...
Guns are inanimate objects. It is the use of the gun that may be dangerous. And in the case of legal gun owners and CCW holders, they are tightly regulated.
Fear of guns is no more logical than a fear of cars; they are both deadly if misused, and sadly, they are misused by criminals on a regular basis.
That is no reason to restrict their use by law-abiding citizens. As you illustrate with your anecdote of the Tuscon visit in '64, the threat is not from the gun, but from the person with the gun. And, in that case, just as in the current open carry demonstrations, the gun owners are not a threat. If you can get over your fears for a moment, you may actually see them for what they are: a deterrent to criminal violence.
Posted Mon, Mar 8, 9:17 a.m. Inappropriate
Ted, don't let these zealots chase you away with their lethal toys, misinterpretations of the meaning and purpose of the 2d Amendment, or absurd assertions that somehow they (and we) are safer if they have a loaded gun and can carry it around with them at all times. Thanks for being a voice of reason and sanity in trying to heal this country's gun-obsessed neurosis. You are not alone. The silent majority will someday win out.
Posted Mon, Mar 8, 9:18 a.m. Inappropriate
Ted, you're brave to even venture here. The gun control debate is no more about logic than is all the nonsense over Obama's birth certificate. But it's a lost cause, politically of course, but more importantly, pragmatically. Making guns illegal isn't going to take guns off the street without a massive government crackdown that is never going to happen in this country. Guns are a fact of life here, and the best you can do is educate yourself and others about them.
To that end, statistics show the risks of owning a gun far outweigh the benefits. That is, guns in the home are much more likely to kill a friend or family member, or result in unjustifiable homicide, than ward off criminal activity. There are responsible gun owners that take measures to minimize these risks, but they are in the minority, and many of these owners still make the weapons available to their teenage sons, which is almost never a good idea (as a former teenager raised in a house with guns, I speak from experience).
Almost every day, someone accidentally shoots their spouse, brother, sister, or friend. Just take comfort that you'll never be the fool who supplied the weapon for such a tragedy.
Posted Mon, Mar 8, 9:36 a.m. Inappropriate
P.S. A good watch dog is a far more effective deterrent for home invasion than a loaded 38 in the dresser drawer (even works when your not home). That's one reason I would personally like to see Seattle become a more dog-friendly city (e.g., allow dogs off-leash in city parks at certain hours).
Posted Mon, Mar 8, 10:23 a.m. Inappropriate
Reasonable argument, bad logic.
The rancher in this case may or may not have been negligent. It doesn't mean that the rights of all ranchers should be changed. This is why gun control fails.
If the rancher had been shooting at the hikers, they'd have charged him with attempted manslaughter at a minimum. Maybe he was; I don't know, but I find it curious that if a jury of his peers didn't feel that was warranted you still use that as an argument.
I was born in Arizona, I grew up in a place that still has full open-carry laws. I know what that's about, and let me assure you; that type of carrying is not a problem. If you want to have effective gun control, start making the gun shows and loopholes go away. Stop giving outlets to felons. Stop running guns into Mexico from Arizona. These simple concepts apply the laws already in place to be effective.
Legislators only pass laws. In reality, they just want to pass the same bills over and over again, but they can't, and they end up making them a little more overarching each time. It gets them elected when they say people can't carry within 50, then 100, then 250 feet of a school. It makes no difference. Effective gun control is either one of two things, and that is outlawing all types of guns, or applying laws effectively and evenly.
The only thing gun control "nuts" like to do is to apply harsher laws on law-abiding citizens. That rarely makes anyone more safe. If you want safety, ban guns from anyone arrested for spousal abuse or DUI for 1 year. Then start focusing on real problems, like DUI and spousal abuse. Hypocrites.
Posted Mon, Mar 8, 12:09 p.m. Inappropriate
The constitutional argument is moot. The War Against Cannabis--an economic war against U.S. citizens, mind you--has been enabled by the Courts erosion of the 1st, 4th and 6th amendments. The presumption of innocence no longer exists in certain cases. So, the right to bear arms has NOT served to secure our other constitutional rights.
That said, the centralization of the means of violence in the form of a State Monopoly is responsible for far more violence, death and destruction than the wide-spread distribution of fire-arms. In fact, the historical data suggests that the distribution of the means of violence--think AK-47--serves to check abuses of power (of course, history only began in 1929 for Van Dyk). Many of the constitutions authors, in fact, articulated an understanding of this; now supported by the science of man--anthropology. Further, if public safety were an actual agenda rather than a ruse, one would begin with the public health system, followed by automobiles.
Posted Fri, Mar 12, 7:43 a.m. Inappropriate
"It seems absurd we are even having the argument."
Yes it does, Ted.
Our founding fathers settled the argument.
Get over it.
Posted Thu, Mar 3, 1:15 p.m. Inappropriate
This leads to the issue of weapons categorization by appearance rather than by function or lethality. The great gun ban of the 1990’s targeted “assault weapons” and other firearms based on external appearances."
==================
The 20 shot magazines that Loughner used were illegal under the assault weapons ban. When that expired, they became legal. He had three such magazines. he fired continuously, emptying the first magazine. When he stopped to reload, one of the wounded grabbed that magazine away from him. He loaded the third magazine, but it jammed. He was then tackled. There were people in attendance who were carrying guns. This had absolutely no effect on Loughner's ability to kill and wound lots of people very rapidly. What made it possible was the large magazine and the rapidity with which the Glock he used could be fired.
Question: In a crowd situation like that, how fast could you react to what was happening, pull your li' ol' pistola, identify who had the gun and was shooting, aim and be sure you weren't going to miss and hit someone else?
Answer: Not as fast as Jared Loughner could completely empty one 20 shot magazine and, but for some brave people near by and a mechanical malfunction, have been able to probably empty two more.
Please give up your "gunfight at the OK corral" fantasies and stick with Viagra.